What amps are you using with your Steen's?

[Audionoobie]

Just got my Aria Sig pre which I am also using with Aria monos driving my Treo CT's. Also added a pair of REL Ti/5's into the mix. Things are sounding very nice indeed!

[bkeske]

@Audionoobie Congrats on the Aria Sig pre! Just wait, it gets better 🙂

[GdnrBob]

@Audionoobie,

It takes a bit of time, but the Aria Sig will open up nicely.

I use the Aria monoblocks and Aria Sig pre with my VLR's and HSU subs to very pleasurable effect. 

Bob

[TomicTime]

Congrats and enjoy in great health 😉

Jim

[Richard Vandersteen]

Hello everybody, we have posted graphs for the Treo and up products under "Specification" on product page.  Shown are the Step, Impedance and Waterfall plots. Many speakers claim to be "time and phase correct" but only these measurements will prove it.    Video coming soon that will explain and teach how to interpret them.  RV

[ctsooner]

Thanks Richard.  When graphs have explanations, it's easier for may of us to understand.  Glad it's on the webite so I know where to send my buddies to see.  

[GdnrBob]

1 hour ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Video coming soon that will explain and teach how to interpret them.  RV

Great!, I always have a hard time understanding John Atkinson's graphs.

B

[chris1625]

I have tried 4 diffent amps/pre/intergrated with my Treo CT's the winner by a mile is the Moon 390 and 760A combo. Moon has zero feedback so the signal is time and phase correct making true magic with a speaker that is also. 

[Steve Edwards]

On 6/12/2022 at 2:09 PM, Richard Vandersteen said:

Many speakers claim to be "time and phase correct"

I'm looking forward to better understanding these design parameters.

[Stringreen]

CT....when you get the new amp, I'd be interested in what you hear different from the Ayre.

[ctsooner]

I’m using Richards amp already.  Ayre isn’t in the same class.   Cant wait for the pre amp as I’m sure it will better the AR Ref6SE. 

[GdnrBob]

2 hours ago, ctsooner said:

 Ayre isn’t in the same class.

Now that is saying something!

B

[Holmz]

On 6/13/2022 at 5:09 AM, Richard Vandersteen said:

Hello everybody, we have posted graphs for the Treo and up products under "Specification" on product page.  Shown are the Step, Impedance and Waterfall plots. Many speakers claim to be "time and phase correct" but only these measurements will prove it.    Video coming soon that will explain and teach how to interpret them.  RV

 

Well when I see a plot and the thing is 180 out polarity for one driver or another, it is hard to make a case that it is accurate to the signal.

Playing ”Devil’s Advocate”, Toole and Olive say that FR and dispersion are more important than everything else, and most of the time and phase accurate speakers are no longer around.  And Sean Olive has the “Circle of Confusion” where the mixing is done on speakers to sound good on those speakers, and it sounds less good on other speakers.
So if the recording engineer has 24 tracks and flips some number 180 degrees in polarity, then what is correct phase even mean relative the sound waves that came in?

Or is this why some albums sound great, and many are just so so.?

How do I reconcile time and phase being important when I am 1/2 sure that the recording engineers can flip phase, and the research says that it is not important?
But I also can look at the plots and think, “being out of phase/polarity is not a great start towards high fidelity”?

[BKDad]

The subject of phase sure gets beaten about a lot, with several different phenomena being tossed into the catch-all basket of phase.

Except for a signal and its associated harmonics, just how do you define phase?  (Trick question.)

Anyway, rather than getting into a debate here, it's better for people to do their own investigation.  There are experts who research this stuff and publish papers on that research.  (I am not one of those people.)  

Just remember, you asked for this...

https://www.akutek.info/Papers/DG_Neural_Mechanism.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5819010/pdf/nihms941973.pdf

http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/audibility-of-time-misalignment-of-acoustic-signals---kunchur.pdf

TL/DR summary:  The aural system is sensitive to not only the relative amplitudes of various tones it hears, but also to the tones' relative arrival times to the ear.  Including, and maybe especially, the harmonics of those tones.  

Besides, to (misquote) the great philosopher Chico Marx, "Well, who you gonna believe; me or your own ears?"  Good advice when searching for an audio system that's supposed to entertain you, the purchaser (or builder).

[Richard Vandersteen]

For sure this is controversial but not for me!  Over the years the best I can ascertain is that some people (me) are more sensitive to "time and phase" than others and to your point it only offers its benefit when the recording happens to have been recorded with time and phase integrity.  I believe this happens on jazz, blues, ballads and other less complicated recordings most often but does not damage other recordings with less timing integrity, so why not?  Often recording engineers use headphones which are mostly time and phase correct so having time and phase correct speakers could reflect more of what the engineer wanted than his own monitors revel.  I will say applying these same principles to amplification is giving the same kind of correctness on music, go figure.  RV

[ctsooner]

Thanks Richard. It just makes sense. Time and phase correctness can’t hurt a recording but you get the benefit if it’s done properly. Either way I like the sound better than the other companies I’ve auditioned over the years. I’ll keep trusting my ears. Haven’t asked for specs on components in years lol. I know I’m different than most audiophiles 

[GdnrBob]

@Richard Vandersteen

I just looked at the Treo page. Under specifications, I can see the graphs, but am unable to enlarge them.

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

54 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

@Richard Vandersteen

I just looked at the Treo page. Under specifications, I can see the graphs, but am unable to enlarge them.

Bob

Bob, Brad is working on that.  RV

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Bob, Brad is working on that.  RV

Bob, I just went to our site and with two fingers was able to make each graph full screen (17 inch) with good resolution!  RV

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, ctsooner said:

…
I’ll keep trusting my ears. Haven’t asked for specs on components in years lol. I know I’m different than most audiophiles 

Not to be overly abrasive, but when a company can supply a step function graph, it shows that they know what it is for, and its importance in the engineering and  design process (and maybe marketing).

So I find it compelling to look for a good step function and maybe impulse function response.
Even though having good frequency response maybe be more important.

I can believe that speakers can sound good with poor technical performance, but I am more confident that the good technical performance correlates with good subjective performance. And that good technical performance correlates with good engineering.

It is also easier to trust engineering when they are able to technically show what they are doing, and it shows that they have the tools to back up their claims. I forget the name of the FFT that Richard was using back in the 80s, but those things are what separates snake oil and witch doctor engineers from real ones.

At some point we need to listen to the speaker, but the use of this in the engineering is comforting.

(And we also need to be mindful of the Twain’ism of, “Specs, statistics, and damned lies.”)

[ctsooner]

10 hours ago, Holmz said:

Not to be overly abrasive, but when a company can supply a step function graph, it shows that they know what it is for, and its importance in the engineering and  design process (and maybe marketing).

So I find it compelling to look for a good step function and maybe impulse function response.
Even though having good frequency response maybe be more important.

I can believe that speakers can sound good with poor technical performance, but I am more confident that the good technical performance correlates with good subjective performance. And that good technical performance correlates with good engineering.

It is also easier to trust engineering when they are able to technically show what they are doing, and it shows that they have the tools to back up their claims. I forget the name of the FFT that Richard was using back in the 80s, but those things are what separates snake oil and witch doctor engineers from real ones.

At some point we need to listen to the speaker, but the use of this in the engineering is comforting.

(And we also need to be mindful of the Twain’ism of, “Specs, statistics, and damned lies.”)

My post came out wrong I think.  I FULLY agree with you.  I USED to look at anything I could see on speakers and amps back when I was reading the first TAS editions (yes, I'm that old that I remember getting the first ones and reading nearly every one since.  It's just that I no longer read much on the products.  I do read the basics, especially with new products, but I'm not into the graphs and stuff anymore. Partly, because I don't understand a lot of them.  I do enjoy reading everyone's posts here though and I try to learn as much as I can.

I hope that clears up what I was trying to say. (I read most of the links BK, you and others share and I almost always stream the songs that folks share on our music threads. 🙂

[Holmz]

No worries @ctsooner

I just read these, “Use your ears” slogans, and picture them being said from a Gutenberg with eyes darting around room, like they are on a mushroom  trip (and looking for the pixies.).
Needless to say, I get cautious when I listen to the wild eyed tales.

It gives me more confidence to see our either the back of our Dutchman haunched over a measurement device, or front on… explaining in a video or showing some graphs. (Like the Pistonic YouTube video.)

 

We have to listen to the things at some point, and I am usually not looking at graphs when I do.
But I appreciate that they are engineered, and probably in the early 80s, they were one of the most engineered speakers.

 

When it comes to amps to drive them… it gets a bit harder.
I do not know the easy ways to find what to use, other than the “try em” method.

[ctsooner]

Totally agree with you I love the videos and what not just like many. All to often I hear a speaker that measures great.  Shows no uplift in the highs etc, but they don’t sound right to me. I often think it’s due to them not being time s d phase correctness,  ut I feel it’s more than that. I notice many speakers showing peaks in the upper bands that throw them off for me. Hey, I could own a pair of Wilson’s and enjoy them now that Daryl changed to soft domes, but even with digital, I don’t find myself listening  to them, for long periods of time when I have that chance. 
 

I probably didn’t even properly share what I’m trying to say lol.  We all have free choice of what we buy. I put money  where my mouth is I guess 

[DC-93]

@Holmz, ever listen to an Ohm F? 

 

So, I'm using my trusty Carver TFM-35x to power my Vandersteens.

250 wpc into 8 ohms, 350 into 4.   Bought it in the 90s from Circuit City.

Usually, the meters don't go beyond one watt!   🙂   

[Holmz]

10 minutes ago, DC-93 said:

@Holmz, ever listen to an Ohm F? 

 

So, I'm using my trusty Carver TFM-35x to power my Vandersteens.

250 wpc into 8 ohms, 350 into 4.   Bought it in the 90s from Circuit City.

Usually, the meters don't go beyond one watt!   🙂   

 

I’ve never heard of the Ohm-F @DC-93

But I usually only shop for amps when the ones I have are broken down and smoking.